tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post114505974476775189..comments2023-08-21T06:06:59.196-07:00Comments on Hellbound Alleee: The War on RelativismHellbound Alleeehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-62416150020577637732008-05-26T03:05:00.000-07:002008-05-26T03:05:00.000-07:00Good Grief.Objective morality. :)Are there also ob...Good Grief.<BR/><BR/>Objective morality. :)<BR/><BR/>Are there also objective taste facts, fashion facts, beauty facts?The Celtic Chimphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570106602777322387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1147442958722160352006-05-12T07:09:00.000-07:002006-05-12T07:09:00.000-07:00That would be a perfectly relevant post, grigsy, i...That would be a perfectly relevant post, grigsy, if we were promoting absolute anything.<BR/><BR/>But we're not.Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1146837394119423412006-05-05T06:56:00.000-07:002006-05-05T06:56:00.000-07:00And the drooling continues.Is any opinion moral, S...And the drooling continues.<BR/><BR/>Is any opinion moral, Simon, or just the moral ones?Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1146823609668716082006-05-05T03:06:00.000-07:002006-05-05T03:06:00.000-07:00Morality is an opinion.Morality is an opinion.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13905592870063005287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1146267767051314092006-04-28T16:42:00.000-07:002006-04-28T16:42:00.000-07:00I mean, you could deny that gravity is defined as ...I mean, you could deny that gravity is defined as the relationship between masses, too, and say that our decision to define gravity in this manner is arbitrary. But what you are ACTUALLY saying is that using the word 'gravity' as opposed to some other word is an arbitrary choice. The gravity is still there.Legacy Userhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524688958792296721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1146267483232959222006-04-28T16:38:00.000-07:002006-04-28T16:38:00.000-07:00Peaker:I think its pretty simple. The fact that yo...Peaker:<BR/><BR/>I think its pretty simple. The fact that you and I are both concious beings, or more specifically, the fact that YOU are a concious being, means that I do not own you. This is a universal truth, I can't think your thoughts, you own them. You can't think my thoughts, I own them. Its observable, its testable in a lab, its a law of fucking nature.<BR/><BR/>Therefore if you assert ownership of me you are violating my nature. The word "moral" is a label applied to actions that are consistent with the basic nature of humans, and "immoral" actions would be those that violate that nature.<BR/><BR/>Basically, you are arguing that morality can't be defined that way... why not?Legacy Userhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524688958792296721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1146184232738391652006-04-27T17:30:00.000-07:002006-04-27T17:30:00.000-07:00Aw crap! You've drawn me into another one. You mig...Aw crap! You've drawn me into another one. You might have noticed that I like to lighten the mood once in a while, but this is too serious for me to take lightly.<BR/><BR/>"I don't deny it, but I believe it is irrelevant and unprovable either way."<BR/><BR/>How is this not denying it?<BR/><BR/>You speak with forked tongue, it seems to me.<BR/><BR/>I believe that most people act from a standpoint of perceived self-interest. The difference is, that those of us who are not qualified to have an opinion but have one anyway, could tell the sociopath about the mistakes that they are making. The sociopath is incapable of agreeing. Talking about rapists in the context of morality is like mice trying to bell the cat. Could we possibly talk about the majority of human beings that are, for the greater part, sane?<BR/><BR/>When the Government takes over the job of law enforcement, they dis-empower us to execute justice. There are reasons to support this. In truth, if I caught a rapist in the act, I would not call 911, I would dispach that individual with no more concern than I would feel killing a cockroach. I have my reasons. I am also both prepared to live with the consequences, and unconcerned as to the opinions of others. Does this make me a potential murderer? Depends upon your definition. Am I a threat to you? Only if.... Is this an immoral position? Not from where I sit. The sanctity of human life is a convenient fiction.breakerslionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14327290369084118043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145792753840165202006-04-23T04:45:00.000-07:002006-04-23T04:45:00.000-07:00I've completely lost patience and respect now."If ...I've completely lost patience and respect now.<BR/><BR/>"If you wish not to be raped or more generally mistreated, you better not be mistreat others. If you do mistreat others, many others will do it too."<BR/><BR/>You wrote it. If you still don't get it, and you wrote it, then I'm not seeing any evidence for you having any sense. <BR/><BR/> Now, why shouldn't I come over and rape and kill you, or is that just "arbitrary?"<BR/><BR/>I do not accept the golden rule, because it is not rational. People do not all want to be treated the same way. Since you can't see why I shouldn't rape you with a broken bottle, this is obvious. The reason you insist that this means morality is not based on fact, and only arbitrary acceptance is because you haven't read a fucking thing we've written or recorded, except this thread. <BR/><BR/>If you can't see any earthly reason why you make decisions every day, things look grim for old peaker. Morality is not what we're doing here, man. It's not about assholes sitting around thinking about what other people shouldn't do. It's what we do. And if you don't know why you're doing it save for your giving up your moral autonomy and submitting to a cultural belief , you're either a monk or a kid. You can't possibly think that you have any grounds for trying to convince anyone here of anything, can you? Because itIs all just made-up opinion anyway. If it's not based on fact, Peaker, I don't give a shit what you say, and nobody else should, either.Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145747323599502182006-04-22T16:08:00.000-07:002006-04-22T16:08:00.000-07:00What I meant was, because we are all conscious ind...What I meant was, because we are all conscious individuals, we all have the same sovereignty over our own selves, and to say that ones self-ownership can be violated is to say that all individuals can be violated, including the individual making the claim of relativism or applying force to another.Aaron Kinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12059982934663353474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145747112993199732006-04-22T16:05:00.000-07:002006-04-22T16:05:00.000-07:00Is it? Why are you assuming this similarity or ide...<I>Is it? Why are you assuming this similarity or identity between that someone and that other?</I><BR/><BR/>Because its obvious that we are all conscious individuals. Or do you deny this?<BR/><BR/><I>If person A chooses to disregard person B, they are not performing any action on the behalf of person B, and not making any implicit admission of what person B can make.</I><BR/><BR/>You are 100% wrong. Forcing rape upon a woman is to force the victim to perform an action. It also violates their ability to determine for themselves what they are to do. What are you trying to deny the existence of force or coercion? Please. <BR/><BR/><I>This assumption of equivalence between all persons, is called "The Golden Rule" that I mentioned earlier.<BR/>You may accept or reject the golden rule, but this acceptance or rejection is purely arbitrary. </I><BR/><BR/>Sorry I didnt read about your golden rule. Theres too many comments here. How does your "golden rule" apply to a rape scenario? Do you think it is "wrong" to rape someone?Aaron Kinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12059982934663353474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145745792583825952006-04-22T15:43:00.000-07:002006-04-22T15:43:00.000-07:00If someone arbitrarily chooses that he cares not a...<I>If someone arbitrarily chooses that he cares not about women, and his only purpose is his own best interest, there is no objective moral reason for him not to rape or to think rape is immoral.</I><BR/><BR/>Your problem is in your proemise. You said: "<I>If someone arbitrarily chooses that he cares not about women</I>"<BR/><BR/>If someone chooses to disregard another, then they are implicitly admitting that someone else can choose to disregard him, and in turn rape or kill him. So, objectively, it is not within this mans best interests to violate the sovereignty of another. That is because you cannot logically state that it is valid to coerce or violate another person without agreeing that it is ok to be coerced or violated yourself.Aaron Kinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12059982934663353474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145745471130574432006-04-22T15:37:00.000-07:002006-04-22T15:37:00.000-07:00"If someone arbitrarily chooses that he cares not ..."If someone arbitrarily chooses that he cares not about women, and his only purpose is his own best interest, there is no objective moral reason for him not to rape or to think rape is immoral."<BR/><BR/>And yet a dick will just as easily be stuffed in your mouth or anus, you stupid bitch.<BR/><BR/>This alone proves that you are a little kid who has no idea what he's talking about. Go back to momma.Francois Tremblayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04760072622693359795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145743541636396652006-04-22T15:05:00.000-07:002006-04-22T15:05:00.000-07:00Any further comments should be made after listenin...Any further comments should be made after listening to the show we recorded today:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.strongatheism.net/shows/hashow/show101.mp3" REL="nofollow">SHow 101: The War on Relativism</A>Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145742790634467012006-04-22T14:53:00.000-07:002006-04-22T14:53:00.000-07:00"agreement has nothing to do with it"What people t..."agreement has nothing to do with it"<BR/><BR/>What people think has nothing to do with whether something's moral, any more than popularity has anything to do with something being true. If you believe that, you're religious, and I have nothing more to say to you about this topic.Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145742363561614192006-04-22T14:46:00.000-07:002006-04-22T14:46:00.000-07:00Rape is forcibly penetrating a human. Can you purs...Rape is forcibly penetrating a human. Can you pursue your values in a society that condones rape? Rape will take away your freedom to pursue your values, and the values of those you care about. Being against rape has nothing to do with women. <BR/><BR/>"There is no objective way to determine that killing a man is immoral, "<BR/><BR/>You're insane, or simply not creative. Or you give up your autonomy and you live in someone's cage.<BR/><BR/>Let me explain this simply, as if I haven't already made a children's cartoon about it, located a couple of posts down:<BR/><BR/>Again--for the 56th or 104th or 212th time (I'm not counting)<BR/><BR/>Morality:<BR/>The study of causality as it relates to human a\behavior,<BR/><BR/>How to Pursue Morality:<BR/><BR/>1. Identify the values<BR/>2.Identify, through fact, if the values are rational.<BR/>3. Determine if the values are being fulfilled by the action.<BR/><BR/>You have assumed I am talking about "the golden rules" or magical rules. I am not, as you can see by the definition above.<BR/><BR/>Question: are all moral judgements equal?Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145740089830178052006-04-22T14:08:00.000-07:002006-04-22T14:08:00.000-07:00#3: Agreement has nothing to do with it.#3: Agreement has nothing to do with it.Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145740038023784662006-04-22T14:07:00.000-07:002006-04-22T14:07:00.000-07:00#1: Rape has nothing to do with women or gender.#2...#1: Rape has nothing to do with women or gender.<BR/>#2: You are assuming positions I have not asserted.Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145714737422571502006-04-22T07:05:00.000-07:002006-04-22T07:05:00.000-07:00No, you don't like my blog, you stupid, lying son ...No, you don't like my blog, you stupid, lying son of a bitch puff of electrical impulses. May you rot in cyber-hell and live forever in a Nigerian Email, where the Mugu is hurling insults about sex with goats and stretched anuses.Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145382798614607182006-04-18T10:53:00.000-07:002006-04-18T10:53:00.000-07:00Sorry, but you messed up about "value." Franc poin...Sorry, but you messed up about "value." Franc pointed it out.Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145288514354622552006-04-17T08:41:00.000-07:002006-04-17T08:41:00.000-07:00I added some new captions to your Sally and Cy sto...I added some new captions to your Sally and Cy story that possibly points to a problem in your thinking.exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145281985607747092006-04-17T06:53:00.000-07:002006-04-17T06:53:00.000-07:00Yes, it looks familiar, and no, Bob, we love you!Y...Yes, it looks familiar, and no, Bob, <BR/><I>we love <B>you!</B></I><BR/><BR/>You have a specific article you wanna add?Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145197625643421192006-04-16T07:27:00.000-07:002006-04-16T07:27:00.000-07:00I'm cleaning out the well as of now.Nowhere has an...I'm cleaning out the well as of now.<BR/><BR/><B>Nowhere has any of us said that we are promoting absolutism.</B> If you have an argument against absolute morality, go argue with an absolutist. <BR/><BR/>If you're still not sure what we're talking about, read the story of Sally and Cy below.<BR/><BR/>Now, Koftu:<BR/><BR/>Who said that we want someone to make decisions for you? You already said you can't make moral decisions, anyway. Now you're saying you do. You don't make moral decisions <I>relative</I> to your circumstances (and that's not even what relativism is), man. You make moral decisions based on the <B>facts</B> of your circumstances, and so does everyone else. The fact that everything you do has a result, and we use facts when making moral decisions has absolutely nothing to do with gestapos and authority figures making you do stuff. <BR/><BR/>Are you getting the picture yet?Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145139037983976532006-04-15T15:10:00.000-07:002006-04-15T15:10:00.000-07:00Reasological:"I think you might have made a mistak...<B>Reasological:</B><BR/><BR/>"I think you might have made a mistake in the war on relativism area."<BR/><BR/>I hope not. But here is what I know to be true, based on episemological data: one cannot argue effectively against belief systems if one has no standards with which to judge that belief system. I know that belief can not be a standard (that's why I am an atheist) to find out the truth. If you want to find out the truth in a situation, you're not going to get it by refusal of evidence--which is what belief is. All you have is reality. No moral judgements can be made without facts, despite the fact that many people think so.<BR/><BR/>Because, as we know for a fact, even big numbers of believers cannot make something true.<BR/><BR/>PS <B>everyone:</B> Is it possible to get people to argue points we made in our posts, rather than arguments against the darned title? I really don't feel like re-writing my arguments against relativism in the comments section, when I spent so much time making a post about it.Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145137865195976642006-04-15T14:51:00.000-07:002006-04-15T14:51:00.000-07:00Reasological"Absolute Morality is a logical fallic...<B>Reasological</B><BR/>"Absolute Morality is a logical fallicy. This is the same thought dogma that religions try to use. You used and example of rape, of course you and I see that as wrong, but look in the bible, or among a portion of the people in the world and you will find people that don't see it as wrong."<BR/><BR/>So what?Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11656430.post-1145137787783118852006-04-15T14:49:00.000-07:002006-04-15T14:49:00.000-07:00Koftu:Be assured that I am a complete and total at...Koftu:<BR/><BR/>Be assured that I am a complete and total atheist who likes to fuck with assumptions -- of christains and atheists.<BR/><BR/>You are making moral decisions, Koftu, or else you would not survive--unless I am mistaken and you are being taken care of. You say that you hope you do not make moral determinations. Are you not an adult? Do you not make decisions at all?Hellbound Alleeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10268832216080854759noreply@blogger.com