Monday, July 03, 2006

Andy Doesn't Get It. Poor Andy.

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If you didn't already know, I copy all of this blog onto My Space, so I can expose myself to the younguns, and more. Such an exhibitionist. Well, my post A Simple Question has received some good attention, and some silly attention. I think you might be interested in seeing what some peeps had to say.

The post is abbreviated, but if you want to see what everyone had to say, check out the blog.
My question is this- Why are atheists ( I'd call you agnostic but whatever, thats a dead horse) so passionite about spreading the word that God doesn't exist? I don't understand the motive. Even just reading that I find the Bible hard to swallow, you get a small feeling of happiness deep down for me, like theres "hope" for me. Why? Is it because of the negitivity christianity has had in the world over the ages? Do you find people who believe in what you don't incredibly annoying? You try and argue compassion for others who are being tricked and decieved, but you have no basis or reason for that compassion and care. To me, you're no different than the christian holding a sign and shouting at women walking into an abortion clinic or telling a gay guy he's going to burn in hell. They have no right or should I say "obligation" to do that, no more than you do to be so passionite about the other side. The idiot christians do this out of lack of understanding of the new covenant, and rush to judgment, ( I'm not saying that they "have it all wrong" and in general christianity is and has been thru the years, a peacefull, caring, loving organization of people) but whats the motive for an atheist? Why are you so pissed off? You argue that we should all love our wives and husbands, kids and family. That we should be nice and care for people....Why? Whats the point? If I didn't believe in something more than humanity, and there was nothing at the end of this race, why run? Who cares? What does it matter? Just becuase humanity has set up these guidlines for good living and whats "right" or "wrong", why should I follow? Why should I submit to humanity if humanity is all there is? If there is no God, then there is no moral compas. If you try to say otherwise, you'd just be attempting to get me to swallow some half assed reasoning that makes you able to sleep at night, much like you would say I do. Morals, "feelings" do not exist in Science. Brain chemistry does, but to not link that with anything other than evolution is just as crazy sounding to me as a vigin birth. Its the old, chicken and the egg bit. You end with the egg, but it makes no sense.

I find atheists just as annoying, frustrating and pissed off as most christian people, especially here in QC, considering the history of "christianity" here. I won't pretend I know everything about God. I won't pretend I don't think alot of the things I read in the Bible aren't weird or horrible, but I believe that God has the final say, not me. I believe His plan is perfect. I think that statement right there is one of the things that get atheists pissed the most, coupled with the fact that you know there isn't a God, even though I claim there is and in fact His plan is better that mine. Yeah, alot of christians are blinded. As the atheist believes that God doesn't exist based on "knowledge" and no "feeling", alot of christians base their faith on a "feeling" and no knowledge. These are the ones that you get to make look stupid, which I'm sure is fun for you and everything, but for me I believe based on alot more than the "feeling". You will reply, "so tell me why you believe". Why do you care? To me, you're just as lost as I am, and need something more as much as I do. You just get to be lost in a funer way than christians, and don't have to exersise faith. Basicly you get to do what you want. If thats working for you, then I'm not going to create a website and a radio program telling people that its not. If it is, it is. Our problem as humans, is that we all want to be "right".

AndrewPosted by Andy on Monday, July 03, 2006 at 12:00 PM

Andy: what did your post have to do with my question? Did you think about it at all, or were you just feeling like you wanted to complain about atheists, and my blog was conventient for you?

Let me try and help you out here a little with your trouble with the concepts of morality and emotion. Somewhere along the way, you have been told that people who like science, and people who find reason important are cold, calculating, and don't care about how people feel. You have been misinformed. Some very creative and passionate people are and were atheists: artists, musicians, philosophers, dancers, and of course scientists. As a matter of fact, I am a musician and an artist myslef, and so is my whole family.

First, I will put to rest your problem with emotion. Emotion is not an imaginary, immaterial thing, and nobody here is trying to pretend it doesn't exist. We need emotions in order to survive and enjoy lid life. So here's a big, bad, old atheist who appreciates, and doesn't poo-poo emotions.

Second, you can't possibly be serious about what you're saying about morality! Andy, do you hear yourself? No point to morality? Seriously, dude, don't be stupid.

Here's the point: give me an earthly, non-religious reason that I shouldn't shoot you. Do you want to be shot? Why shouldn't I kill your family? Think about it for a moment. Can you think of at least one reason for me not to harm you? This is simple, Andy. I am not looking for a deep, philosophical answer. Think of a reason that, well, sounds dumb.

Figured it out?

If you can't, that's what religion does to people. They say stupid stuff like what you said. They (not me, not "atheists,") have had their moral autonomy stripped from them. This is what religion does. I'll try to explain.

What do you see when you look around you, or when you think about the things that matter to you? Do you love anyone? Do you have anything that you love to do, any passion in life? I do. I have many, many things that I love and value. Recruiters want you to forget that any of that exists. Then they "give" yo God. They tell you that God is everything, and all those things that matter are nothing, because they are icky, sinful, low, base, "material things." They tell you that the things that actually EXIST are meaningless, and that imaginary things, the godly, high and powerful "intangible" things "matter." What they're doing is thinking completely backwards.

Now that your thinking is completely opposite from reality, you look at someone like me, an atheist, someone who "doesn't have god." Well, when your thinking is trained up like yours is, naturally, you assume I have NOTHING that MEANS ANYTHING. We are, as many christians like to say, ALONE WITHOUT GOD. Interesting, because that's the exact tactic that abusive lovers use. "You're nothing without me." That's, well, immoral.

Morality, Andy, is very simple. Morality is NOT A LIST OF STUFF OTHER PEOPLE SHOULDN'T DO. Morality is the study of causality in human action. Sounds complicated, but it isn't.

Values are things that you want to attain and keep. Morality is the process of figuring out if those values are reasonable. Causality is the fact that when you do somethng, other stuff happens as a result of it. Do you see now, how religion has nothing to do with morality? Christainity is AMORAL. It says that you must not judge, you must obey. Morality is NOTHING, if not judgement. You have to figure out if your action will cause a good reaction. There is no figuring out in OBEY. Now, look at the ten commandments. Those are not always good values, or reasonable ones. No working on a Sunday? That's silly.

You see, Andy, you are the one who believes that the world is meaningless, not me. I'm sorry you are living this way. I don't. I know, and I am learning how the world is a big place for one person with one life, and there is so much wonder and loveliness and horror and ugliness in it. How sad that you would say its meaningless! And you don't understand why an atheist would ever be angry?

By the way, Andy, I am not afraid of being judged (whoops, Andy, you're judging) "Angry." Anger (an emotion) is not a taboo for me. Anger is an emotion that, when used well, is helpful. But be assured, I am not angry. You may have been told, incorrectly, that anger is something that is always accompanied by violence. Luckily, I am not part of a religion that has one of the many violent gods out there.

And this is why I spread the word. I want more people in my world who are morally autonomous, and have the tools at their disposal to make good decisions about the world, not people who find no value in it.
Posted by Hellbound Alleee on Monday, July 03, 2006 at 6:58 PM


dlkjdfsa said...

I know it's long... what can i say, I have a big mouth.

I just came out of my Atheists closet a year ago. The first thing I felt compelled to do was make a flyer explaining that zero could never exist which proves there was no creator. This didn't go over very well in the Christian saturated city of New Orleans. Then I traveled through the bible belt speaking with Jesus Freaks trying to have logical debates about the existence of God. 145 million people in America belief the earth is less than 10K years old. Having a brain in the USA is really frustrating.

I started blogging 4 months ago and attracted many believers in with my strange peaceful atheist text. I realized latter they thought that I was a person that they could save and shortly had huge dialogues going on with them. I wanted to help them and they wanted to save me. They have no idea why we are upset and scared, which isn't surprising seeing as they are trained not to think for themselves.

I'm getting to the point were I feel all my efforts are futile. Religion is a disease and I don't have any idea what the cure is. How do you get a person to start thinking for themselves when the walls have been built up so high. I have one piece of advice for the evangelical Atheist, be on extra good behavior. Don't make fun of them. This just makes them think that we are working for the Devil and puts another brick the wall that is already a billion feet tall. Be kind, compassionate and above all patient. When your talking to them always remember that they're sick and treat them accordingly. If you run into the brick wall that you probably have already run into a billion times over walk away in peace, leave them with a smile. Show them by example that an Atheist can be a pleasant and kind person.

Last week I found a program made by Richard Dawson on yourtube called "Religion root of all evil?" It was freakish watching it. Every second of the 9 part film, I felt in total agreement with the man. It also made me a little sad because I realized it's perfection. It should be on the evening news. The religious should be screaming against it with protests because of it's naked truths. Do you hear about it? NO. You hear about fictional movies about Jesus fucking his mother. I beg of you, put links to the Dawson movie on your sights, spread the word.

breakerslion said...

I think this is the best exposition of your viewpoint that I have encountered so far. Brava Alleee!

Hellbound Alleee said...

I don't actively try to "save" people. I don't have an incentive, like brownie points or a bigger mansion in heaven. If I were a recruiter, or a fisher of men, I would be going into christian territory. I don't. They come to me. They always come to me. If they feel like changing, so much the better.

Have I changed anyone? You bet. There are new atheists all the time. There are people who write to me thanking me. It's not "futile." It feel "futile." We don't need people giving up like that. You just need to keep your mouth open, don't let them think that they can get away with saying stupid things to you, like "your life is meaningless." Why would you want to let someone say that kind of nonsense to you? Of course you don't.

People's bullshit needs to be challenged, from the littlest Urban Legend to the biggest church. We've got children imprisoned in a Mormon cult right now, who want to get out, and are not allowed to go anywhere. A cult where they are forced to listen to cds of the cult leader all day, every day, where they wear uniforms, where they are paired up in multiple marriages as young girls, where the leader can turn around any day now and say that the End is coming. This belief stuff is serious business. People leave religions and enter new ones all the time. There's no reason to think that any particular belief is unshakeable.

Hellbound Alleee said...

Breakerslion, I thank you! ;)

dlkjdfsa said...

I know I'm being a whine ass alleee. I'm a grown man but I feel like I got a big Christian rod up my arse, just like them little Mormon girls. Louisiana is the dead center of the bible belt. We don't even have a free thinkers association that I can go to and pretend I'm in Canada. One of the speakers in a Vox show said that he only sees Atheism getting more popular. I don't know where he is from but down here I feel like they're going to start hunting us soon.

This is a comment from my blog

fight the good fight said....
"In my opion, the consequent findings of fossils AlONE proves the existence of Naoh and the Ark."

How do debate with this nonsense? I find it so difficult to even talk to these people. How do you get a blind person to critique a painting? I respect what you're doing. You are a good outlet for a person that is searching and you most certainly expedite the process for them but if they're really searching they were on there way to atheism in the first place.

Big problem 1. Most people can't deal with that fact that this life is all we are going to have. It freaks them out. Fear of death and explaining natural phenomenon is why god was invented in the first place. I truly think atheists are born. It takes a brave person that puts meaning into there own life to face their eminent death and except that it is the end. The religious look at atheism and see nothing of value, no hope. They see Mr. Gruff who vanishes when there dead. This is the curse of atheism, I think it takes a very special person. Life likes to live, it likes to live so much that it will forcibly create and fantasize about an afterlife. Religion is the most addictive drug on the planet.

Big problem 2. Our world is headed to disaster by more than just religion. Overpopulation is at the core of all modern mans problems. From poisoning the air, oceans and earth, lack of fresh water, global warming, to relying on limited recourses for our survival, it all boils down to way too many people creating too big of a problem. Most intelligent people I know are not having kids because they have strong feelings that the shit is going to hit the fan very soon. I can't believe it when a couple has more than two kids. The brainwashed religious are having enormous amounts of kids and spreading there religious disease like a cancer that is out of control. You being in a more civilized part of the world probably are less aware of this frightening fact. What I've observed in America I would describe as a Reverse Evolution. The intelligent and brave are getting smaller in number and the dumb and scared are growing in number. I should ask Dr. Zack how we can fix this epidemic but I don't think we'll be able to mess with mans genes. It's an unnatural selection.

I'm sorry for being Mr. Gruff. The good news is I'm happy being me :) It's the sick people that surround me that piss me off. I wish I could believe in GOD. Ignorance truly is bliss.

dlkjdfsa said...

even longer ;)