Thursday, October 20, 2005

Alleee Answers a Letter

A Humble Christian

Hey Guys,

I am just a humble christian. The reason I was on your website is because I was seeking more wisdom. For you see, I wasn't always a christian though. I am also calculus guy and an experimentalist (Aerospace Engineering major at ASU). I'm all about finding the rates of changes and the like, in fact one of my mottos is "every day, in every way, I get a little better." It never hurts to try new things and observe what's different in my life, and to see whether that difference makes a positive or a negative change in my life. If it's a positive change, then I've just learned a tidbit of wisdom about what to do, and if it's a negative change, then I've just learned a tidbit of wisdom about what not to do. I have gone to hindu temples, explored other worldly wisdoms, but ultimately I have settled on Christianity and learning by what's in the Bible. It has just simply produced the greatest rate of positive change in my life. In other words, Jesus is the gradient whom points me towards achieving my life's maximum potential. One of the things that scares me about your website is that it says the opposite of what Jesus says, in other words, multiplying that gradient by a negative one and pointing toward life's other extreme. I could however be wrong, maybe or maybe not.Some of the things that I have learned in Christianity (mostly from reading old testament books such as Proverbs and Psalms): The value of having integrity (doing what I say and saying what I do) My old self has died to ways of the world (Godly wisdom is going against all Earthly wisdom) Going against your own consciensness is going against God (theoretically, I think) Could you guys just help me out on the third thing? You know, if you guys are going against God, then are you guys also having a guilty consciense [sic] too? If you could enlighten me on this, I would very much appreciate it. Thanks, James

Thanks for your letter.

To quote you:
It has just simply produced the greatest rate of positive change in my life. In other words, Jesus is the gradient whom points me towards achieving my life's maximum potential."


That would be "better" and "potential" as outlined in the bible, or rather, what you consider to be in the bible. You would have to already believe in Christianity before you were "bettered" in order to consider it "better." I do not believe in Christian morality. If I am a "better person," it is because of values I have that are not biblically based.

" One of the things that scares me about your website is that it says the opposite of what Jesus says, in other words, multiplying that gradient by a negative one and pointing toward life's other extreme. I could however be wrong, maybe or maybe not."


We quote Jesus on our website, from various translations of the bible. We therefore do not say "the opposite of what Jesus says." We quote Jesus and show why those things he says are anti-values. I do not consider Jesus' teachings to be moral.

"Some of the things that I have learned in Christianity (mostly from reading old testament books such as Proverbs and Psalms):
The value of having integrity (doing what I say and saying what I do)"


I'm glad you somehow learned this from the bible. I learned these things from my parents and experience. Jesus on the other hand is not a good example for this. Especially since he didn't "come back" as he promised in the Gospels. His claims to have never broken any of the ten commandments are suspect, as he does not honour his mother, according to the gospels.

"My old self has died to ways of the world (Godly wisdom is going against all Earthly wisdom)"


This idea is exactly why I am against Christianity. It is immoral to dishonour the facts of nature and follow unproven beliefs. This is one of only a very, very few religions that teaches to fight against nature and follow imaginary spirits. Most religions teach you to live in accord with natire as best you can. If "Godly wisdom" truly goes against earthly wisdom, this is a religion I am against.

"Going against your own consciensness is going against God (theoretically, I think)"

That would mean that God is all in your mind. In any case, I never advocate going against my own conscience. That would be silly. I just don't think my conscience is a humanoid-type character, like a homunculous or spirit, angel or a god. It would be better stated that going against my values would be going against my best self-interest. Honouring my values is the only way I can act morally.

"Could you guys just help me out on the third thing? You know, if you guys are going against God, then are you guys also having a guilty consciense [sic] too? If you could enlighten me on this, I would very much appreciate it. Thanks, James"


James, I appreciate your questions.Did you say that you were once an unbeliever? If you did, I'm afraid I would not agree with that. If you were always a believer, I apologize. Someone who once did not believe would not have asked such a question. I do not believe in a god of any kind, therefore I cannot by definition "go against god." To tell you the truth, if this God I assume you believe in exists, the God Jehovah/Jesus (is this correct?) NO ONE could "go against god!" Not an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God, as defined in the bible.

If you still don't understand, here it is: I try to be as honest as I possibly can. Being honest with myself and others is one of the most important things I can do, in order to live a happy and successful life. I honestly am proud to be doing what I am doing. I want to help people. One way to help people, I think, is to help them out of various harmful religions that tell them to fight against nature and the world, and waste their lives with false promises given to them by old scriptures and otherwise honest (and dishonest) people. I think it is wrong to tell people that life is cheap, and the world is corrupt, and that they will one day find "riches" in a place that doesn't exist. It is much better to honour the world and the truth, with all its evils and glories, just as it is. I think it is greedy and futile to wish for more than the WHOLE, ENTIRE, HUGE UNIVERSE. Life, in the world, is what I -- what we -- have, and we should honour it. Not denigrate and demonize it. Or be afraid of it.

I hope this answers your questions. I don't know if Franc has anyting to say, but I'll forward your letter to him.

Sincerely,
Alleee
http://www.hellboundalleee.com

15 comments:

Atheist Bill said...

I do so love the "You're going against God! Don't you feel horrible?" routine.
Its like they can't comprehend that Atheists don't believe there is or ever has been a God. They (and I say "they" because this seems to be such a common argument) can't pay attention to the single basic concept of Atheism, how on earth are Atheists supposed to take these people seriously?
A lawyer completely ignoring what his oposition has to say is never going to win a case... well, unless you're name is Jack Thompson, but I think that is just to get him to go away.

Evil Homer 666 said...

This is a very different post. I was expecting the usual fire and brimstone curse Alleee usually gets from Christians. I look forward to his follow up reply.

Thomas said...

It is a good thing your humble correspondent fell in with the Christianity cult and not with one of the the other ones. They don't all look so kindly on this so-called "Calculus" business. See Mr. L. Ron Hubbard for instance:

Rate of change is this mathematics known as Calculus. Calculus, it's a very interesting thing, is divided into two classes -- there's Differential Calculus and Integral Calculus. The Differential Calculus is in the first part of the textbook on Calculus, and Integral Calculus is in the second part of the textbook on Calculus. As you look through the book, you'll find in the early part of the book on Calculus, "dx" over "dy", a little "dx", and a little "dy" -- and one's above the other on a line -- predominates in the front part of the book, but as you get to the end of the book you find these "dx" and "dy"s preceded by a summation sign, or are equating to a summation sign, and the presence of this shows that we are in the field of Integral Calculus.

Now I hope you understand this, because I've never been able to make head nor tail of it. It must be some sort of a Black Magic operation, started out by the Luce cult -- some immoral people who are operating up in New York City, Rockefeller Plaza -- been thoroughly condemned by the whole society. Anyway, their rate-of-change theory -- I've never seen any use for that mathematics, by the way -- I love that mathematics, because it -- I asked an engineer, one time, who was in his 6th year of engineering, if he'd ever used Calculus, and he told me yeah, once, once I did, he said. When did you use it? And he said I used it once. Let me see, what did you use it on? Oh yeah. Something on the rate-of-change of steam particles in boilers. And then we went out and tested it and found the answer was wrong.


Source

From the perspective of rationalist atheism, it's hard for me to tell these sorts of religions apart. I recently re-read the gospels, and boy was Jesus bat-shit insane!

Hellbound Alleee said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hellbound Alleee said...

This will be long...


Christian:


Everyone starts out as an unbeliever. You can't just start out believing when you are born. This is why believers are born again. I've merely forgotten how my conscience felt before I was an unbeliever. I guess, as for me, I just went from unsaved to saved when I decided to believe. I was contemplating suicide, and as a last ditch attempt I invited God into my life and I feel a whole lot better now than I did then. I once felt like a failure, but now I feel like I can accomplish all things through him who gives me faith. Ever since I have given up drinking, smoking, weed, watching much porn, as well as I now have a goal in life to become an Aerospace Engineer or maybe I'll decide to become a pastor instead. Going to church and finding God (as an engineer, I'm really pulling for intelligent design) has really opened up my eyes. Seriously, my old ways have died and my new self couldn't be happier. I used to follow earthly wisdom but now I follow Godly wisdom instead. I will reach my life's full potential now, whereas before I dedicated my life to God, well, it all just seemed pretty grim for me. I experimented with hinduism, smoking weed, and drinking alcohol trying to find a better way, but in the end, I found that way in Jesus Christ.

As for what Jesus taught in the Beattitudes (I learned this in Church):
Jesus taught about having self-humility (a bad ethic?), which is diametrically opposed to having self-pride (a good ethic?).
However people whom have self-pride fall the hardest when they are wrong. People whom have self-humility, will acknowledge that they are wrong when they fall, and then they can correct the error of their ways, such as to not fall hard.

Jesus taught that people aren't perfect and never will be. Hence, we are born into an imperfect world (made imperfect by prideful people). If God is perfect, and people are not, then when people sin they are committing acts of rebellion against God, that is, they are committing acts of imperfection. This is why we Christians ask for forgiveness for our sins and, when we humbley repent (an act that requires humility), God will forgive us. Nobody likes humbling themselves and acknowledging their imperfections, but this is all part of the process of self-improvement and building up integritty.

Jesus taught to be gentle when dealing with other people. This is all part of doing to others as you would have others do unto you. People don't necessarily like it when they are dealt with in a harsh manner. This leads hard feelings (left lobe of brain stuff).

Jesus taught that it is better to have a clear conscience and be persecuted for it, than to sway from your ideals just for the sake of avoiding persecution.

Jesus taught that it is better to have mercy on those who do you wrong, than it is to judge them for it. It is better to recieve mercy than to recieve judment.

Jesus taught that it is better to make peace with those you have strife with, than to leave that strife unresolved.


Thanks for your response.

I was contemplating suicide, and as a last ditch attempt I invited God into my life and I feel a whole lot better now than I did then. I once felt like a failure, but now I feel like I can accomplish all things through him who gives me faith. Ever since I have given up drinking, smoking, weed, watching much porn...,

You did that. Not God.

I used to follow earthly wisdom but now I follow Godly wisdom instead

"Godly wisdom" is earthly wisdom. It came from people. But "nature," as many christians claim, is not ruled by the devil. It is ruled by the facts of the universe.

I experimented with hinduism, smoking weed, and drinking alcohol trying to find a better way, but in the end, I found that way in Jesus Christ.

How do you "experiment with Hinduism?" You looked into it? That's a very good thing. It's too bad you got stuck in a religion that tells you you shouldn't look into other religions. Not that any of them are much good. Anyway, I highly doubt that you thought that drinking would help you find a "better way." You know what Proverbs says about drinking? It says that you should give alcohol to people who are poor and suffering.

"Proverbs 31:6-7
6 Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more."


Maybe drinking IS the way?

As far as porn, well, there's nothing wrong with looking at porn. Looking at stuff and feeling horney os not wicked. It's a fact of nature (and good health) that a young man should have sexy thoughts. It's a real crime that the religion is against life and sex like that.


Jesus taught about having self-humility (a bad ethic?), which is diametrically opposed to having self-pride (a good ethic?).

Yes, self-pride is a good ethic. It helps people follow their highest values and do always what's in their best self-interest, so that they can do good in the world. Self-hatred is a bad ethic.


However people whom have self-pride fall the hardest when they are wrong.

And people who hate themselves have already fallen. The bible teaches us that we are evil, rotten, and unworthy of heaven. Only through the grqace of god are we allowed to step our dirty feet into his clean heaven. How much lower can you get there? People who have self-pride are strong enough to handle mistakes they make, and are better equipped not to make them. People who hate themselves don't see the point in doing food, and expect, correctly, that they will fail.

Jesus taught that people aren't perfect and never will be.

There is no such thing as perfection. It doesn't really mean anything. But Jesus taught that we are unworthy, evil creatures corrupted by sin.

Hence, we are born into an imperfect world (made imperfect by prideful people).

God was supposed to have made the world perfect. Somehow he managed to make a perfect world where his perfect beings could sin, and he made a magical tree and put it there for no reason whatsoever, unless he wanted Man to sin.


Jesus taught to be gentle when dealing with other people.

There is no instruction in the bible for how to gently treat children. It only says to beat them when they are bad, and sometimes kill them.

This is all part of doing to others as you would have others do unto you. People don't necessarily like it when they are dealt with in a harsh manner. This leads hard feelings (left lobe of brain stuff).

This is not a good rule. It claims that we all have the same values and desires. It ignores what others want and focuses upon what "you" want. Others do not necessarily want the same treatment you want.

Here's another thing that Jesus taught:

People like me are going, and deserve to go, to a place of eternal burning and intestinal parasites, because of what we think and say. Why would you follow such a person? Jesus preached about a terrible end-of-the world war, where he would be a principal killer. Jesus never taught that you should never own another person. Jesus taught that love=agape: the love between a master and a servant. Jesus never taught about freedom. Jesus taught that when people have medical problems, they are full of demons. Jesus taught that the only people worthy of him were Israelites, and gentiles and others are no better than dogs. JEsus taught that he should be a king of those people, and the rest of us should just die. Jesus taught that you should never question, never think for yourself, and follow blindly.

You wanna know more about Jesus?

http://www.hellboundalleee.com/jesusverses.html

They play on my station. We do more all the time.

The hell problem really trumps all the other ones. You know, Jim Hones also said a lot of things about niceness and cooperation, and made a lot of sense. But in the end, he wanted to be king, and it was a doomsday cult. Christianity has a doomsday too. This is a big problem. As long as Christianis believe that it is just that I should suffer for eternity for the things I say and think (because I'm not "saved" from it) then you cannot sell this kind of story to me, or any of the Hindus you read about, for that matter. You should hold yourself accountable for promoting this belief, that eternal torment=justice. I don't care if you think hell is a lake and worms, like Jesus said in the aermon on the mount, or eternal separation from God. Eternal Separation is just eternal mental torment, rather than physical, and no one deserves either one, for finite "crimes," either physical or thought-crimes. And atheism is, of course, a thought-crime.

But whatever makes you happy...
Sincerely,
Alleee
http://www.hellboundalleee.com

Evil Homer 666 said...

"People whom have self-pride fall the hardest when they are wrong. People whom have self-humility, will acknowledge that they are wrong when they fall, and then they can correct the error of their ways, such as to not fall hard."

Where have I read a simillar, but more simple and less dressed up version of this?...

oh yeah!-

"if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it."

From the The Nine Satanic Sins
by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1987

Hellbound Alleee said...

So sorry for the horrible typos.

Sr.Jesus said...

They (and I say "they" because this seems to be such a common argument) can't pay attention to the single basic concept of Atheism, how on earth are Atheists supposed to take these people seriously?

They are humble but unable to understand that some people think differently. So humble but think they are omniscient to attest what is God´s work, and whether he is telling the truth about himself.

There's something very weird with this humbleness. I d rather say that every religion is a bunch of arrogance and selvagery, disguised in apparent morality.

breakerslion said...

"Jesus taught that people aren't perfect and never will be. Hence, we are born into an imperfect world (made imperfect by prideful people)."

Yup, that's right. It's our fault.

Christians just can't seem to help it. When the clergy tells them they must behave in a way that makes them easy pickings for the clergy, they just believe it right along with everything else.

Let's analize this using their own paradigms shall we? (Allegedly) God made Adam and Eve and he did not make them perfect, otherwise they would not have been able to disobey him/it. If this is so, then he did it on purpose, otherwise he is not god because he made a mistake. Same goes for all those fallen angels, by the way. So here we are told that if everyone gave up their pride, the world would be perfect. For whom? The megalomaniac god that wants everyone to kiss his infinite ass? The clergy who represent themselves as his surrogates? Would we all then be happy and dance and sing like a bunch of drooling Hari Krishnas at the airport? What is the opposite of pride? Humility, or shame? Is not humility a form of pride in that one can be satisfied with one's self for being humble? No, I think to be truly humble, one must also be a masochist, and grovel and declare one's sincere unworthyness for the smallest considerations. Sounds like just the kind of wretched, broken "spirit" that many a clergyman love to hear "testify".

What's good for the system is not necessarily good for the individual, is it?

Rev. Barking Nonsequitor said...

Going to college gave me the tools to understand why there cannot be a god. Learning science and logic litertally showed me a good model for describing how the world works. God really didn't fit. I am an engineeer and I find that I can apply what I know to everything around me - including my emotions and human interaction. Overcoming life long indoctrination in dogma and learning how to live without a god belief is liberating. It means you accept everything life hands you. There are no guarantees. There is no "afterlife". This is taught to us to trick us into giving up our money and transferring our will into another persons hands.

No Deal.

Aaron Kinney said...

Thats one hell of a response, Hellbound Alleee!

Lya Kahlo said...

All I've got to say is that drawing is CREEPING ME OUT.

Hellbound Alleee said...

I know. I think it has something to do with the way Jesus has his fingers. It`s gross.

Lya Kahlo said...

It's a kind of "want to try some of god's candy, little girl?" pose. *shudders*

Quantum_Flux said...

Thank you Alleee!