Friday, June 30, 2006

An Example of the Typical Christian "Answer."

Here is the typical "answer" to Normal Bob Smith's question, and I am only reposting one of them. Bob has more of this excuse...I mean, "answer: than he can handle.

I think the thing to keep in mind is the God did not create Hell for people. He created Hell for Satan and for the demons.
Jody: did God make the rule that non-believers go there or did he not? My question was "why did God make the rule that non-believers must go to hell. I was a christian. I know your excuse about hell being made for demons and angels. I was asking for an answer, not an excuse. This is not a justification, Jody. Why? And to add to that: why should satan go to hell? Please go into the bible, and give me a reason--a good reason--that satan should suffer for all eternity. What did he do that made him deserve to suffer terribly for all of eternity? This is your assignment. I want you to learn the truth about who Satan is in the bible, and who he is not. Next, find all instances of the word "Lucifer" in the bible, and then come back and tell me who he really is. This can only be good for you, Jody, to read the bible carefully. Right?

The reason Satan and the fallen angels couldn't dwell in Heaven any longer is because they wanted to be as powerful and great as God. God created angels (including Lucifer) to worship Him in Heaven. When the angels no longer choose to do so, or if they decide they want to follow Satan and serve themselves then they are in sin, and sin cannot dwell with perfect light.
Again, Jody, find this in the bible. Find out where it is located, and then report to me what you have found. This is important, Jody. It's my immortal soul we're talking about. Next, I want you to find out the origin of this story. Hint: this is a myth of the babylonian religion. You aren't a Babylonian, are you? So why do you follow the Babylonian myth? Also, why do they deserve to be tortured forever?

When God created Adam and Eve He gave them free will to choose to follow Him. But man is inherently selfish and self-serving, because we desire pleasure over pain, and naturally we want to pursue what's best for us. So, I think to assume there are "no good people" is faulty only because we do have good traits. We do love and care and nurture, but we also have a selfish side.
Yes. We want what's best for us. Why do you think, Jody, that what is best for us is bad for other people? Do you think that helping other people harms us? Why is that? Also, why does wanting what's best for us make us deserve to be tortured forever?

I think when Paul talks about people (in Romans) not being good, I think he means that we are not completely good. I think he means that we have faults, unlike God who is perfect. So, as imperfect creatures, we need to rely on God to show us a measure of grace and mercy, and guidance. If we reject God's love and correction we are telling Him what Lucifer told Him- loosely, "I am Better than You are."

OK. So if I am not all good, which is very, very true, why do I deserve to be tortured forever? If I said that I was better than Jesus--which I am, because I don't believe people should be tortured forever, no matter what they did--do I deserve to be tortured forever? Why?

The Bible tells us that God desires that no person would go to Hell. So we know that none of us are predestined to that fate. But we can choose our fate by rejecting God's precepts and elevating ourselves above Him.

So if God doesn't want me to go to hell, then why did he make the rule that only a very few people won't go to hell? You would think that God's hands weren't tied here, Jody. Do you believe that people who donh't believe in God think they are better than God? How does that work, JOdy? DO you believe that people who believe in HInduism and Buddhism deserve to burn and be tortured forever? Why? I don't care if God doesn't want it and is powerless to make it stop. I want to know why. So far, you haven't answered either fo the questions, JOdy.

One question I have that is completely off topic. I have been told that angels in Heaven are not given an equal amount of free will. If not, are they only able to choose whether or not to worship God, since Lucifer chose not to?

I'm glad you are thinking, Jody. If angels don't have free will, they cannot choose to do anything. IF you have started to read about Lucifer, you will find only one mention of his name in the bible. The fallen angel thing is not scriptural, Jody. It is in books that were rejected as part of the bible. The story of the fallen angels comes from babylonian myth. "Lucifer" was not an evil god. Lucifer was a Babylonian god who was incorporated by the Greeks. He was rivals with his brother, who was head honcho. Lucifer was never meant to be satan. In fact, there is not one Satan in the bible. There are many. Once you start reading the bible, you will learn this. A satan is an adversary. One of God's "sons," in the older books, is interpreted as Satan. He does what God tells him to do, nothing more. "A" satan, one that is referred to by people like King David, is anyone who opposes him. Like a human being.

This is how people learned to demonize others, and make it okay to kill and torture them. There is a lot of this in the bible, Jody. But what I am asking you to do, Jody, is to find a justification for torture. If God made the rule that allnonbelievers will be tortured forever in hell, then this is god's justice. If it is moral, then, Jody, it must also be moral everywhere. If you apply morality to some things and not others, this is called "relativism." You could also call it "wishy-washy." If you want to actually prove something is good, it has to always be good everywhere. Therefore, Jody, you have to justify to me why people, no matter what they have done, should be tortured, forever. Please do this for me, Jody. If you can, perhaps I'll look into your religion. Until then, I'm sticking with the sensible position that people are mostly good, and tend to want the best for themselves and the people they love, and that there is no morality whatsoever in torture and force.


Jody said...

my response was not meant to be an "answer" the previous post. Because I don't have all of the answers. I did a quick search of Lucifer in the Bible and found this link:

But I also found this link:

and this one:

It does appear that angels have free will. It also appears that Lucifer's sin was pride. Your questions about why God would create Hell are good ones. There are some questions we don't know the answer to, so I can't condescend to pretend I know the answers. I think it is a positive thing to question faith and to look deep at scripture and to rely also on the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to us. There does seem to be a dispute about who Satan/Lucifer is based on scripture. And I choose to believe the references to Lucifer are in fact references to Satan. I don't know WHY God created a Hell because I don't think His reasons are expressed in scripture. But I do know that God is truth and Love and good, and his promises for his believers is a future and a hope with Him in Heaven.

I don't know that you'll ever arrive at an solid answer on Why.

Hellbound Alleee said...

OK, but you didn't find it in the bible! Why can't you find out for yourself? Dinosaurs and lucifer? That reference to Lucifer was calling out to a fallen Babylonian king, not to Lucifer. If you read the context, you will see.

Jody, but why then, why is it ok for you? Why is it okay that people are tortured? If you had a leader that had people tortured for not voting for him, would you not be totally outraged, or would you sit back and accept that your leaders are doing the right thing? DOn't you think that you have enough sense to know what is good and what is not good?

Someone says "the president it good." But then you find out that the president was directly responsible for the torture of the people who didn't vote for him. What is your response, Jody? You are basically saying, "well, I know the president is good, so torture muct be good, too."

Do you torture people, Jody? DO you think it would be ok if I tortured you? I don't care if you do good things or bad things. That's not important. Maybe you do bad things. So I should torture you, because God says it's good and just that nonbelievers should be tortured--forever.

You're not actually going to sit back and accept that billions of people will be brutally tortured forever and say, "well I know he is good, and so it must be good, although I don't know," are you? Because it sounds like you are. Jody, I am sorry. You sound nice, but I am forced to admit to you that I think you are amoral. If you can't find it anywhere in your brain to take a moral stand on eternal torture, Jody, then you're either evil (which many christians admit anyway, as there was this magic tree, see and this snake...) or mentally deficient. I'm sorry, Jody, but you can't be moral and respond like this. Why have you given up on your morality?