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Bob Smith has been asking the question for weeks. Not one has answered the question. They have simply returned the emails with excuses and obfuscation. Not one addresses the question honestly.
To the Christian (who, of course, believes in hell, and don't give me that seperation from god stuff--you know that's supposed to be terrible suffering as well, otherwise no one would care that they were seperated from your pansy god):
How can you enjoy your afterlife while millions suffer eternal torment in hell? Especially when some of them could be your friends, aquaintances, and family? When so many millions of them are simply regular, "good" people who were in the "wrong religion?" Little children, grandmas, people who have done wonderful things, millions of people who led wonderful lives, suffering in hell because they did not accept Jesus?
Let me clarify: I'm asking about you, and your feelings personally. Will the terrible eternal suffering of others, whether they supposedly "deserve it" or not, whether they were Gandhi or just some 8 year-old child of Buddhists that did nothing in his life but do what 8 year-old kids do, will you be able to sing loud enough to drown out their screams, and pretend everything is perfect the way it is? Is that perfection to you? If you sit outside of a torture chamber while someone's fingernails are being peeled off, will you be perfectly blissful as long as you've got yours? Because, after all, Kiko or Deepa "knew" Jesus and just ignored Him.
Isn't Jesus great for making sure Kim and Ahmie suffer forever? Bless him for making the rule that Cho and Charles should be burned forever for not believing.
Here's my question, that has never been answered. I expect bullshit to follow:
Why did God/Jesus make the rule? Please justify the morality of eternal suffering for nonbelief. After all, if God made it so, it must be moral, and it must be really easy to figure out why eternal suffering after death is morally justified. Now, I say this knowing that nonbelief does not cause suffering in life, because I am an atheist, and I am a very happy person. I also know that belief, in life, does not prevent suffering (or the cause of suffering.) Therefore, the suffering must come after death (if you can figure that one out). So that's why you guys had to create the idea of hell. I mean, come on, many people who do not believe in your fantasy are perfectly happy in their own fantasies, or reality. So you had to create this idea that otherworldly Lord-Of-The-Rings-Style imps to inflict. Ta Da! The non-belief itself didn't make me suffer. God had to make it so beings he created hurt me.
So again: justify it.
Now that you think you've justified it, tell me why those who vote for the losing presidential candidate should not be tortured right now. Tell me why you shouldn't beat your wife, burn her with cigarettes, throw her down the stairs and humiliate her. Tell me why, if a child talks back to you, that you shouldn't lock him in a closet for days and let him sit in his own filth. And then rape him when he comes out. After all, if God saw fit to make that happen, if Jesus made it so, you should do the same thing. Correct? Justify it.
I'll be waiting.
24 comments:
I have another question. If God created us in his image, does that mean that God poops out of his butt?
Couldn't he think of an easier way for man to get rid of excess waste, why even have waste...unless God couldn't figure out a better way, which means of course that God has an asshole and he poops out of it.
Ah, but it's a divine asshole, and His shit don't stink! Hallelooya! Angels wait in line to be dumped on! Is it any weirder than the stuff they do believe? I'm not making this up, it's the divinely inspired Word! Wait a minute, I'll speak in tongues! I'll go one better and speak in armpits!
I have never understood why if you, or I, or anyone starts spouting such blather it is recognized for the bullcrap that it is, but let some cagy asshole say it in the Bible.... Maybe I need to grow a beard and stop bathing....
Your question reminds me of the Ursula K. LeGuin story, "The ones who walk away from Omelas".
You'll enjoy this...uh..."answer."
Once again Alleee has completely misconstrued Christianity. She is asserting that her worldview i.e. that people are inherently good and then arguing that God is unjust or not justified in sending these *regular* *good* people to hell. As Creator and sustainer of all human life God requires not justification whatsoever for what he Sovereignly decrees. Once again you (Alleee) are presupposing something that doesn't comport with the worldview that you espouse. You are asserting that God as judge would have to conform to human sensibilities in order to be considered just. This supposes that contigent human knowledge is somehow superior to God's knowledge. In fact your assertions are based solely on what you percieve to be true. Logically your entire line of reasoning is fallacious.
If you are going to argue against a tenet of Christianity at least argue against what Christianity actually teaches rather than setting up straw men arguments. You must logically argue against the doctrine of original sin prior to implying that God is unjust for punishing sinners.
Furthermore define "good" and provide the rational argumentation for calling anything good in the atheist worldview. For example, if life evolved how can an action of a human being that doesn't further the potential of survival for the human race be considered good?
Another fine representation of the Goose's inability to represent Christian beliefs accurately. Bravo! Are you sure your not a Christian in disguise attempting to make atheists look like complete morons? If so keep up the good work!
Does this guy have anything to say at all besides "Alleee is a moron?" Gee. He seems to know something about Christianity, but I have no idea what it's actually supposed to be.
I decided to use this for fodder for my own blog. Some bad questions, some good questions, and my answers, be they good or bad, are to be found here.
So, Brucker, hell is being in a 50 degree desert without gas? But forever. Sounds terrible. Again, why do I deserve that?
Brucker, are you implying that hell was not created by God, and that somehow he doesn't have any power over whether dead people "go" there? What a pansy god.
You have given me an answer that is completely morally relative. You have shown me a God that does not have control over a "realm" that he clearly created in the bible.
Bob asked "how can you enjoy heaven." I ask why. No one has answered my question. Not you. You haven't even admitted if it is justice or not. If it is unjust, that I should suffer forever, then why should God be hogtied on this?
I admire your sophisticated cherry-picking of the bible, and your ability to disagree with Jesus on hell. But it's not that I don't "like" your answer. You still didn't tell me why. And if you don't like why, tell me how, then. How is it that I die and then come back to life and suffer forever? Then, why would a God, who clearly doesn't want anything to do with suffering on earth (pshaw, why shoudl he care about suffering on earth when everyone is already worshipping him? Too much trouble), want to go to the trouble of assuring they continue to suffer forever with his pit?
Nice religion. You suffer, you die, you suffer, unless you join the club. But then that's only after you die. That's your "answer." So far it's 0 for 0.
Oh, for fuck. I forgot. I'm supposed to not get mad and realize that you people have to live with those beliefs. I'm sorry, and thanks for the links.
So obsessed. Anyway, I mentioned to my Christian mom (people, please, I was a fundy for 12 years, I'm no poor ignoramus atheist) about the little "because it doesn't say so in the bible, God didn't make the rule about going either to heaven or hell." She burst out laughing.
35 fucking thousand denominations of christianity, every single one of you has your own interpretation of the bible, I get one of these smartasses who thinks it's ok to make up liturgy. DAMN HELL! It doesn't say Jesus wasn't a fat circus freak, so in order to justify my arguments, Jesus was a fat circus freak! I have evidence, btw. He was awfully grumpy when he couldn't get food, enough to zap people.
Oh, I suppose that in one person's personal christian religion, Jesus came back later and planted a super-duper fig tree in the place of the one he zapped. Or, two feet to the left. Anyway, that's the thinking man's interpretation. And he was in the desert, and it was 50 degrees, and there was no water, and Jesus' El Camino broke down. Besides, it was his choice.
Because, ladies and gentlemen, there is no morality in your dead body and its soul-puffs transporting to places magically upon the stoppage of your heart and lack of oxygen to the brain. It just is, and the science, well the science of certain beliefs -- or "behaviors" sending you to one place or another, your spook, that is, it's just not out yet. That's because there is no such thing as "cause and effect," and God, well, leave him alone, it's not his fault.
So, Brucker, hell is being in a 50 degree desert without gas? But forever.
Metaphorically.
Sounds terrible. Again, why do I deserve that?
Well, no metaphor is perfect. In the terms of the metaphor, what really is happening is that an atheist decided that they don't need a car to cross the desert. I tend to always flirt with pushing my metaphors too far, though. The point is, Hell is, for some reason, just where we are all headed, and Jesus offers a solution which we are free to accept or reject. It's not about deserving it or not.
Brucker, are you implying that hell was not created by God, and that somehow he doesn't have any power over whether dead people "go" there? What a pansy god.
Neither. Somebdoy else suggested that Hell was created for rebellious angels, and that may be correct. In any case God does have power over who goes there, and His criteria is that He sends people (and aforementioned angels) there if they would prefer not to go to Heaven.
You have given me an answer that is completely morally relative. You have shown me a God that does not have control over a "realm" that he clearly created in the bible.
I don't know that I said anything about control, but that would be interesting as an academic issue: If Hell is a place where God's presence is not felt at all, it seems it implies that God does not have influence over Hell. Influence over who goes there, yes, but once they're there? I suspect not.
Bob asked "how can you enjoy heaven." I ask why. No one has answered my question. Not you.
As I admitted, I think this is the hardest question in the bunch, and I don't expect that I would have an answer that would be sufficient for you. I don't really have one that is sufficient for me! Many of my fellow Christians wrestle with this issue quite a bit.
You haven't even admitted if it is justice or not. If it is unjust, that I should suffer forever, then why should God be hogtied on this?
I thought I had answered the question, sorry. I think it would be unfair for God to make people go to Heaven if they didn't want to go. God isn't "hogtied", He simply chooses to respect the wishes of his creations.
I admire your sophisticated cherry-picking of the bible, and your ability to disagree with Jesus on hell.
Where did I "disagree with Jesus"?
But it's not that I don't "like" your answer. You still didn't tell me why. And if you don't like why, tell me how, then.
I don't follow you. I feel that I answered. If you don't then you must not like what I said, not in the sense that you necessarily find it distasteful, but you don't find it an acceptable response.
How is it that I die and then come back to life and suffer forever? Then, why would a God, who clearly doesn't want anything to do with suffering on earth (pshaw, why shoudl he care about suffering on earth when everyone is already worshipping him? Too much trouble), want to go to the trouble of assuring they continue to suffer forever with his pit?
For whatever reason, there is an essence of who we are--I suppose we call it the "soul"--that survives death. Our choices in life have some effect on what happens to that essence. In what way, I don't think we can understand in its entirety, but in part, we know that we get to choose whether it will reside with God or without God.
Brucker, what reason to you have for believing that there is an essence of who we are?
How about this: we have a body that perceives, metabolizes, feels emotion, and has a memory? There is no reason to believe in an "essence," a "soul," a "spook," a "homunculous," or a "self." If there is a reason, you should be able to point to something other than a body. There isn't a little man inside feeling and seeing. We already have everything we need in our bodies to do those things. There is no evidence, therefore no reason to believe or suggest that there is life when there is no life.
You disagree with Jesus because Jesus is extremely clear about what hell is. Every legitimate theologian I have ever read agrees that Jesus preached a physical, real hell realm with fire and parasites. Too bad he has no idea what heaven is. As far as scripture goes, heaven is nothing but something much worse than hell was ever described.
If you are happy with a metaphorical realm, it stands to reason that heaven, souls, Jesus, and God are metaphorical as well. Taken that way, I see no good moral lessons coming from any of it. What possible good can come from the denial of real, meaningful things in favour of post-death realities? After all, metaphor is pretty useless once you're dead.
Are posts moderated, or did my response just not go through?
Brucker, what reason to you have for believing that there is an essence of who we are?
I think Descartes' "Cogito ergo sum" is rather convincing. I don't know that the sorts of conclusions Descartes inferred from this position follow so logically as he might hope, but the central concept is there.
I feel that I can know that I exist, despite the fact that I can perform no experiment to tell me if my true essence is the sum parts of my body, just the brain, a disembodied spirit, or the hallucination of Hindu's Brahman. From a radically skeptical perspective I can doubt just about anything other than the basic fact that I exist as a conscious entity.
How about this: we have a body that perceives, metabolizes, feels emotion, and has a memory?
Who is this "we" that owns this body? Do you "have" a body, or are you a body? Choose your words carefully when talking about consciousness and self-identity.
There is no reason to believe in an "essence," a "soul," a "spook," a "homunculous," or a "self." If there is a reason, you should be able to point to something other than a body.
Is there reason to believe in your blog? I read some words on my computer screen, but is your blog on my computer? If so, does it cease to exist when I turn my computer off? Perhaps it's on a web server somewhere? If you took me to this server, would see your blog, or would I just see some boxes sitting in a room humming softly to themselves as electrical impulses passed through them?
The world has room enough for things that are not located spatially such that one can "point" to them, without having to even consider the spiritual realm. Indeed, where is the Internet? If you can't point to it, does that mean it doesn't exist?
There isn't a little man inside feeling and seeing. We already have everything we need in our bodies to do those things.
I agree. I would in no way advocate the concept that the soul is some sort of smaller self contained within the larger self. The soul is frankly something that I cannot define, but suspect resides in the physical body in much the way software resides on one's computer.
There is no evidence, therefore no reason to believe or suggest that there is life when there is no life.
I think you mean there is no evidence that you find acceptable. That's a fine thing to say; I have a friend who used to always talk about how his house was haunted by the spirit of his grandmother. I didn't buy it, but he didn't believe without evidence, just without evidence that suited my own tastes.
You disagree with Jesus because Jesus is extremely clear about what hell is. Every legitimate theologian I have ever read agrees that Jesus preached a physical, real hell realm with fire and parasites.
I never said that Hell was not physical place. I believe that, too. I just don't believe it resembles the clichéd picture that I described in my original response. There may be fire, there may be parasites, there may even be tormenting demons, I'm not sure. All I am saying is that Hell is like the world, but without God.
Besides, I think that all this talk about "legitimate theologians" is presenting the would-be responder to Bob's questions with a moving target. While I happen to agree with most theologians on this point, the issue was whether a Christian would answer the question, not whether they would answer it the way you want them to. If you already know how theologians would answer, and won't accept answers that differ, then why ask the questions in the first place?
Too bad he has no idea what heaven is. As far as scripture goes, heaven is nothing but something much worse than hell was ever described.
I don't follow you here?
If you are happy with a metaphorical realm, it stands to reason that heaven, souls, Jesus, and God are metaphorical as well. Taken that way, I see no good moral lessons coming from any of it. What possible good can come from the denial of real, meaningful things in favour of post-death realities? After all, metaphor is pretty useless once you're dead.
You're right, metaphor is useless once your dead, but we're not dead. If I had the ability to simply take you physically to Hell and Heaven for a tour and let you see it for yourself, I'm sure that would be far preferable to putting forth allegories to explain things. I don't have that ability, though.
I am about to stick it to you so be prepared. OK, God prepared hell for the devil and his demons. He did not prepare it for humans. People call Christianity sexist but it is not. Women should be able to stay home and live a life of luxury while the male provides her a living. While she's home she should be able to at least keep the house. The male is in the leadership role and therefore sin entered the world solely through him and not through Eve. That is the only reason. Not because Eve was some kind of moron. She was smart but Satan decieved her and told her to do whatever she wanted. Life in the garden of Eden was beatiful. It was a tropical paradise where one could have lots of fun doing what they want as long as they obeyed God. Then Adam sinned after Eve solely and plunged the human race into a sinful nature and doomed us to hell. It was not our fault it is merely a punishment that God needed to set to show us how dirty we are and that he is God and can't survive without him. Again, define "good". Look at it from a Christian perspective for once and not your illogical atheistic view. I only chose Christianity because evolution and other religions didn't make a bit of sense to me.
I forgot my moral absolutes thing to stick to you. If we are good who determines that? is it us? According to you we are the "god" of our own universe. We make the rules. I think that it is morally right to kill you because I make the rules in my own universe. How much sense does that make? Do you have any idea why crime is spiraling out of control? that philosophy right there. Because evolution says that we are slime so it does matter what we do. Evolution doesn't make sense because of the law of thermodynamics which says that everything is in a state of decay meaning that our genetics are too. This means that we are not evolving but what the bible says about how short our lifespans are compared to the people in Genesis. Do you have any idea what the Bible says about you? Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. In other words you are leading Christ's little ones astray and you will be punished for it.
Still don't have a comment for me!!! I guess I did stick it a little harsh didn't I. The Bible has so many historical facts in it that it should be believed. I am waiting for a reply. c'mon give me something to argue with. I get pretty bored waiting for people to argue because they always know they will lose so they won't argue. email a nice hatemail message to me at tsnm8888@yahoo.com!!!!!!
Michael, not only are your comments inane and pedestrian, you are commenting on something from last June. What do you expect? A debate? Give it a rest.
If you can't think of any reason why I shouldn't kill you or the people you value, except that it would send me to hell, then you are immoral. Period. You can't define "good," therefore you don't deserve this response. Bye.
What exactly is your problem? If there is no God why do you atheists spend so much time and money trying to disprove him? Why not just live your life and not worry about it?
You forgot to say that God is a loving God!!!!! therefore he doesn't want us to go to hell. He wants us in heaven. the first rule of evangelism is not to argue for the sake of arguing but to argue the truth. oh no i used the word "truth" I forgot you don't believe in that. Buit the fact is that "For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life" John 3:16. You are only mentioning the bad news. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god" Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through jesus our lord" Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" In other words God sent his son to bear our penalties so that we could have access to his kingdom. No other religion in the world has you getting to heaven free. they all rely on doing something to get you there. God gives us a free gift no strings attached that you can either accept or reject. Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are you saved and not of yourselves. It is a gift of god and not of works lest any man should boast"
I am going through Bible College and recant my "arguement statements" Because I was going to argue for the sake of arguing and not for the sake of the truth
"Believers" are so confused on this issue I don't know where to start.
The first person who responded, saying something along the lines of "God doesn't need to justify himself, he's God and his sovereign will make it right" basically shot themselves in the foot.
Ever heard the Euthyphro Problem? Basically, if you derive morality from God, which I assume "believers" do, then you've already lost.
Either you
a) believe (as the poster did) that something is moral and justified simply because God says so, in which case, morality means nothing, and is the arbitrary decision of some entity (God).
If thats too confusing for you, here, I'll break it down: how can something be truly considered good or moral if God just as easily could have said "killing is moral" and that would be the established mode of behaviour. In other words, if you accept this, then you accept there IS no good, only God's command, which can be anything.
the other option is
b) morality truly does exist, there is a "good", and God simply lets us know what it is and tells us to follow it.
In other words, you are admitting that something preceded God, namely, morality, and that God is bound by morality to choose certain rules and not others (eg dont kill, because killing is bad).
So... you either accept that no such thing as morals exist and that God is a ruthless, arbitrary dictator, or you admit God is not all-powerful and is limited by a framework of moral rules.
Have fun Christians/Other religions/morons :)
ps. im not even going to comment on the evolution thermodynamics thing, its completely wrong. you need to learn psychics, hell, just go on wikipedia and learn about why that thermodynamics argument holds no weight.
viva la revolucion!
I have no doubt that what I say will be picked apart and misconstrued to no end but I feel a bit compelled to reply to this blog.
I wonder if you consider yourselves liberators from archaic thinking or if you just enjoy belittling people. (Both?) Either way, it comes as no surprise to me that you meet it with such aggressiveness. What better way to come off as intelligent than to fain interest and then reject what people have to say without honestly considering the possibility that something is true? You must feel so superior!
You are so quick to reject everything that comes to you with obscenities and rants, that your motivation is pretty clear.
It is not because people think that they have a superior intellect over you that they attempt to reason with you. It is not even for your sake that they argue on this blog. They, and I, offer up protest because there is a God, and because He is worthy of being belittled for and rejected for. It's not about going to heaven or being "good", its about Jesus receiving the reward of His suffering for me.
Your primary misconception, I think, is that people are at all influenced by your childish mockery and that we are trying to enlighten you in some way, as if we could do that without God. Let go of your silly charade! Let go of your prideful and arrogant heart! There is a God and there is a sacrifice for what you, and what I, have done.
May the Lamb that was slain recieve the reward of His suffering (and, in case you are wondering, that reward is you)!There is no sin greater than His sacrifice, and there is nothing else worth living for.
As to the original question, which is one that is asked very commonly, my understanding of the Bible tells me this: You are right in your assumption that Christians believe that God is 100% Good. He is also 100% Just. It is also true that He allows evil. Now lets consider what must follow.
Option 1: God creates the world but doesn't allow the possibility of evil. Welcome to being a puppet forced to serve a master you don't want and an enslaved heart that God doesn't want.
Option 2: He allows evil and forgives all sin anyway. God being 100% good cannot do this because what is evil hates what is good. Why would you ever want to go to heaven and praise God if you hate Him here? Also an all powerful goodness would destroy a finite evil just by being near it, like a light would consume darkness. It also violates the just nature of God. He can't (yeah CAN'T! His nature dictates this) forgive you because it wouldn't be right to do so.
Option 3: He allows freewill but when you try to act on it, you can only do good. This option is just ridiculous on all fronts. Do you want to live in a world where you go to throw a punch but end up giving a fistful of flowers? We want real choices with real consequences.
Option 4: He doesn't create us. More later.
Option 5: He allows evil but then punishes it accordingly immediately. So the first time you ever sinned, you immediately get what you deserve. The problem is what do I deserve when I offend an infinately powerful authority? I get an infinately powerful punishment. You may say that Hell is unfair, but philosophically it only makes sense that an all good God would destroy what is evil. Wouldn't you want a God that gets rid of the pain of the world? Why the suffering? Because you are given an opportunity to turn and you scorn Him and make fun of Him. Or at best you say "No thanks" and walk away. Even that is like saying, "yeah, sorry but I'm not THAT bad and youre not THAT good". See my point. Hell is what we deserve! The real unbelievable part is not that God would punish forever those that hate Him. It is that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, so that we would have the opportunity to be reconciled to God!
So whats the point, anyway? Why are we even here? Because God is God and He deserves to be worshipped by people that really love Him. He doesn't need us, but He does want us. We are created to find joy in Him. So when we praise God we don't just "find meaning" we become fulfilled, like we've starved ourselves for years but just keep suffering from hunger. He is the Bread of Life. Thats the way He set it up!
So thats theology in a couple of paragraphs. Obviously not complete but hitting the high notes. Reject it if you want. That too is the way its set up. One day, every knee will bow, in Heaven and in Hell. I don't ask you to stay away from Hell because it is going to be the worst imaginable place and I don't want you to go there. I ask you only to strip yourself of your suffering now and find the One Whom your heart longs for. Worship Him because He is worth it and for no other reason. Its hard for me to believe that He could still desire me, but He does, and He still desires you too. He is the carpenter's Son, He turns old stuff into new stuff.
You know bill, your option 1 is EXACTLY what was going on before the fall. Adam and Eve had free will, yet they had no idea what evil even was until satan (who god also created seemingly by accident) tempted them. Then God got pissed. Just look at the name of the tree, the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" that we weren't supposed to eat from. He obviosuly wanted us to be blissfully ignorant of evil. Not a slave. And i'm sorry that you think a finite time breaking some arbitrary rules that no human really cares about is worthy of an eternity of suffering. I MIGHT be able to swallow Christianity if it said we go there just for a while so we can change or minds. If we go to Hell, then obviosuly we're going to say "Oh shit, he does exist" and repent until our arms fall off, but if He's going to offer us no objective evidence in life and then give us an eternity ruling in death, then quite frankly God is an asshole.
To Bob Smith - The reason no one can answer is that hell is not true. It is primarily a bad translation of a few greek words that have nothing to do with endless punishment. Evil does incur punishment but it is for a time and it is for a reason. Jesus is the Savior of All Men and will not fail at His mission. All good parents punish their children for the purpose of helping them live a good life. God is the best parent of all. Yes there are punishments and they are severe, but they will have good results. Living for Jesus in this life (and He taught love, peace, caring, giving, etc) will have its rewards. Opposing His teaching will have consequences. But Jesus will not fail in His mission to bring everything under His control and then will hand the kingdom up to God so that God will be all in all.
To Bob Smith - The reason no one can answer is that hell is not true. It is primarily a bad translation of a few greek words that have nothing to do with endless punishment. Evil does incur punishment but it is for a time and it is for a reason. Jesus is the Savior of All Men and will not fail at His mission. All good parents punish their children for the purpose of helping them live a good life. God is the best parent of all. Yes there are punishments and they are severe, but they will have good results. Living for Jesus in this life (and He taught love, peace, caring, giving, etc) will have its rewards. Opposing His teaching will have consequences. But Jesus will not fail in His mission to bring everything under His control and then will hand the kingdom up to God so that God will be all in all.
Buddhism has the answer to everything... you guys should look into that religion thoroughly and you will find out...don't quickly judge it though..it takes years for me to understand...or maybe thats just me;). sorry abit off topic here !
may all be happy! ^_^
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